photo #8199973

Does anyone who can read Arabic care to make a comment on this? I can't. waʿindahumu while they (have) with them CIRC – prefixed circumstantial particle LOC – accusative location adverb PRON – 3rd person masculine plural possessive pronoun الواو حالية ظرف مكان منصوب و«هم» ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة A discussion with AI on what it means (please note, AI can ROYALLY mess up, so take this with a grain of salt) : can you read this (the attached image)? It's Arabic. AI: Yes, I can read this Arabic text. It says "wa-ʿindahum" (وَعِندَهُمْ) which translates to "and with them" or "and they have." The image also includes grammatical annotations below the text: PRON: Pronoun (referring to the هُمْ suffix which means "them" or "they") LOC: Locative (referring to عِندَ which means "at" or "with") CIRC: Circumstantial particle (referring to وَ which means "and") This is a common phrase that appears in the Quran and Arabic texts. The structure consists of a conjunction (و/wa) + a locative preposition (عند/ʿinda) + a pronoun suffix (هم/hum). David: I don't understand Arabic grammar, but I do reasonably well understand English grammar. Is there a verb tense in it? AI: No, there isn't a verb tense in the phrase "wa-ʿindahum" (وَعِندَهُمْ). This is actually a nominal sentence in Arabic grammar, not a verbal one. Let me explain this in terms of English grammar: The structure consists of: "wa" (وَ): a conjunction meaning "and" "ʿinda" (عِندَ): a quasi-preposition meaning "with" or "at" "hum" (هُمْ): a possessive pronoun suffix meaning "them" or "their" In Arabic, "ʿinda" (عِندَ) functions somewhat like "have" in English, but it's not a verb. It's more like saying "with them is..." or "they have..." without using an actual verb. This construction is used to express possession in Arabic. So while in English we'd say "they have" (using the verb "have"), in Arabic this same meaning is conveyed through this prepositional structure that doesn't contain a verb at all. If we wanted to make this into a complete sentence in Arabic, we would add what they possess after this phrase, for example: "وَعِندَهُمْ كِتَاب" (wa-ʿindahum kitāb) meaning "and they have a book." David: Is there indication in the phrase as to when is the possession. It is in the past, or it what is possessed in the present, as in, something that they presently possess. AI: There's no explicit indication of time (past or present) in the phrase "wa-ʿindahum" (وَعِندَهُمْ) itself. The phrase is temporally neutral and doesn't contain any markers for tense. In Arabic, this type of nominal construction takes its time reference from the context in which it appears. By default, without any other temporal markers, it would typically be understood as referring to the present - meaning "they have" (currently possess). However, if this phrase appeared in a text with past-tense markers elsewhere, or in a narrative clearly set in the past, it could be understood as "they had." Similarly, if used in a future context, it could mean "they will have." This is different from English, where verbs clearly indicate tense (have vs. had vs. will have). In Arabic nominal sentences like this one, the time reference needs to be determined from the surrounding context or would be clarified by adding specific time markers if needed. So to directly answer your question: The phrase itself doesn't specify whether the possession is in the past or present - it depends entirely on the context in which it appears. David: Would it become more clear if we expand the context? Again, you'll have to explain this, because I understand nothing of Arabic. Look at Quran Surah 5:41 - 5:51. Also, maybe also consider 5:57 and 5:59, because they seem to mention Scriptures they previously received. I'm still wanting to know if there is a specific indication of what is possessed in 5:43, specifically, it talks about the law they have before them. Is that something that is in the present possession of the people the speaker is addressing? AI: Let's examine the broader context to better understand 5:43 and the issue of possession of the Torah. I'll search for the fuller passage that includes 5:41-5:51, 5:57, and 5:59. Quran Surah 5:43 Arabic text وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ and translation 10 results Let me search for the other verses you mentioned to get the full context: Quran Surah 5:57 and 5:59 Arabic text about scriptures previously received 10 results Let me look for verse 5:59 specifically: Quran Surah 5:59 Arabic text وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلُ 10 results Now I'll analyze the grammar and verb tense in the relevant verses to answer your question about possession and time references in these verses. Analysis of Surah 5:43 - The Key Possession Phrase Looking at verse 5:43 with its Arabic text: وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِن بَعْدِ ذَٰلِكَ ۚ وَمَا أُولَٰئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ Surahquran The specific phrase you asked about is "وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ" (wa-ʿindahumu al-tawrātu), which is the same grammatical construction as your original example "وَعِندَهُمْ" (wa-ʿindahum). In this verse, the structure indicates present possession: "وَ" (wa) is a conjunction meaning "and" "عِندَ" (ʿinda) is the locative preposition meaning "with" or "at" "هُمُ" (humu) is the 3rd person plural possessive pronoun "them" or "their" "التَّوْرَاةُ" (al-tawrātu) is "the Torah" When translated, this phrase means "and with them (is) the Torah" or "and they have the Torah." The grammatical structure clearly indicates present possession - they currently have the Torah at the time of this statement. There is no past tense marker. In Arabic nominal sentences like this (without a verb), the default understanding is that it refers to the present state unless context indicates otherwise. Supporting Context from Surrounding Verses Looking at the broader context: In 5:43, the verse begins with questioning why they come to the Prophet for judgment when they already have the Torah: وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللَّهِ My Islam ("But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah?") In 5:59, there's reference to previous revelations: قُلۡ يَـٰٓأَهۡلَ ٱلۡكِتَٰبِ هَلۡ تَنقِمُونَ مِنَّآ إِلَّآ أَنۡ ءَامَنَّا بِٱللَّهِ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيۡنَا وَمَآ أُنزِلَ مِن قَبۡلُ وَأَنَّ أَكۡثَرَكُمۡ فَٰسِقُونَ My Islam ("Say, 'O People of the Scripture, do you resent us except [for the fact] that we have believed in Allah and what was revealed to us and what was revealed before?'") This latter verse uses actual verb forms: "أُنزِلَ" (unzila), which is a passive past tense verb meaning "was revealed" or "was sent down." This shows that when referring to the past action of revelation, the Quran uses explicit past tense verbs. The context of these verses (5:41-5:51, 5:57, 5:59) collectively addresses the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who are contemporaries of the Prophet Muhammad, and discusses how they have their scriptures with them in the present but are turning away from the judgments contained in them. Conclusion About Verb Tense In 5:43, the phrase "وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ" (wa-ʿindahumu al-tawrātu) indicates present possession - "they have the Torah" at the present time. There is no explicit verb in this construction, as it uses a nominal sentence structure typical in Arabic to express possession. The context clearly indicates that the Torah is in their present possession, as the verse questions why they would come to Muhammad for judgment when they already have the Torah with its divine judgments. The contrast with explicit past tense verbs like "أُنزِلَ" (unzila - "was revealed") in verse 5:59 further confirms that when the Quran wants to refer to past events, it uses explicit past tense verbs rather than nominal constructions. So to directly answer your question: The possession of the Torah mentioned in 5:43 refers to present possession - something they have in their possession at the time the verse was revealed, not something they only had in the past.